We really need a forum?

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We really need a forum?

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:34 pm

The very low presence of people on this forum, only 98 arrived after three months, shows many things:

- The first to the actual need for a forum at the international level was very low.

- The second that the great majority of players activity and not interested in international issues.

- The third which is much easier to read others instead of expressing their own opinions.

- The fourth makes sense that a forum to explain the activities of the tournament, following a collection, buy-buy, all things done with a well-managed Web.

- The fifth that probably most people get bored listening to the little controversies of the four cats that are on the table football.

- The sixth for a forum that is alive is essential to respect the opinions and ideas of others, which is impossible here seen that the "cheap irony" and "sarcasm" are the "normal"

One last consideration:

I am waiting impatiently for the course "programs" of work of new, old and older board candidates .... but nothing ...

How easy it is to criticize and challenge is having ideas .....

Table football awaits some hard times ... sorry.

Piero

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  panagios on Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:20 pm

A forum is as good as the issues it raises and the participants.
Therefore, a forum is always needed so that people that live in different countries may communicate in public. If the dialogue is poor, do not blame the dialogue!

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:36 pm

Two comments only:

1) Table Football needs a Forum, FISTF official or unofficial. Doesn't matter. Table Football community needs a place to share their opinion about all issues regarding the sport.
Poor dialogue or not, this is not the problem. The problem is the lack of information we all receive from FISTF when we see FISTF website not been updated for several weeks and FISTF Circulares been sent to national associations president's only. Fortunately APS president soon started to share the information, but how many players in the world doesn't have access to this information and only get it when FISTF website is updated ?
Current FISTF Board has a severe problem in communication matters that must be solved in the next elections (I hope!).
2) We have more than 2 months before the Congress where elections will take place. Only Thossa published his program. Others, including myself, we didn't publish our programs, that's true. In my case, in spite of my work with the FISTF website from December 2008 and August 2009, when the website was everytime updated in proper time. It shows the quality of my work with no doubt. I have my ideas and I intend to share them in the proper time. Now, it's too soon for that. However, I was not invited by any of the candidates for FISTF president yet. In this case I will just wait and reserve my position in a future time. In any case, I'm an official candidate from Portugal.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  maxischn on Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:04 pm

if the forum would have been implemented on the official FISTF site or be mentioned in EVERY newsletter, there will be way more users, i dare say that not all of the players have heard of it yet....


and a forum is a must.
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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  von K. on Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:05 am

The number of registered users has nothing to do with the users in general. Many people like to read forums to keep track of things, but don't want to register, because they don't intend to write anything. That doesn't mean it's not important for them. For example I would have read the italian forum without registering for a longer time, if some areas weren't protected.

Many people write more in their own countries forum, and then only a couple from a country write here. The italian forum is a good example of the fact that international issues are interesting also people who don't write here. For many it's also a question of language.

Sarcasm can be a problem, and should maybe be avoided. But then again, I don't know if it has to be taken too seriously. And also accusations can be problematic. These two seem to go hand in hand here, in all directions. But it's not the fault of the forum. And also, even poor discussion is better than no discussion at all.

Irony is not a problem. Life is full of it every day.

I'm still waiting for the news about the candidacies of Drazinakis and Aggelinas. Before that I'm not expecting anything from anyone. And there is plenty of time for the candidates to introduce themselves.

I'm also waiting for the new FISTF Forum that was promised in april. And I'm still very angry about the closing down of the FISTF Forum without warning. Lots of important info and discussions were deleted without even considering twice.

There are problems, of course, but I can see many people contributing to that. This, when trying to look at things objectively.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Admin on Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:48 am

I can't agree more with the latest posts. This forum was created because the official forum was deleted and the new official one never came up (which to me proves the FISTF is against the share of opinions and that they di not keep their promises to have a discussion Board).

I also agree that I know many players who often visit the forum but never post messages.

Just like I often check the italian forum, sometimes get angry about some unbelievable things I read there (for instance I read Stefano De Francesco's post saying that if I become president the U12 category will not be official anymore, that Eric Verhagen will be allowed to play for the Netherlands and several other not so funny things) without replying (because my italian sucks).

So it's important to keep this forum alive, at least because it's a good way to protect democracy.
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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:21 am

Luis, we should stay with the facts.
1. It is the right of FISTF Board to communicate officially only with presidents or board members of associations, national associations are the members of FISTF. If the president of an association is not able to spread news from FISTF, the members of the national association should think about it, if their president is the right person for that job. Don't blame for everything the FISTF Board! (not only in the current situation, we had that situation already before that board was elected)
2. The circulars are not sent only to the presidents of the association, they are free to download from the FISTF website.

When do you think to send your program? Maybe some associations have questions or some input on your program, it could be late for something like that if you send it on 31st of august!

A forum is a must for me too, but some discussions are closer to yellow press than table soccer.

Heinz

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:Two comments only:

1) Table Football needs a Forum, FISTF official or unofficial. Doesn't matter. Table Football community needs a place to share their opinion about all issues regarding the sport.
Poor dialogue or not, this is not the problem. The problem is the lack of information we all receive from FISTF when we see FISTF website not been updated for several weeks and FISTF Circulares been sent to national associations president's only. Fortunately APS president soon started to share the information, but how many players in the world doesn't have access to this information and only get it when FISTF website is updated ?
Current FISTF Board has a severe problem in communication matters that must be solved in the next elections (I hope!).
2) We have more than 2 months before the Congress where elections will take place. Only Thossa published his program. Others, including myself, we didn't publish our programs, that's true. In my case, in spite of my work with the FISTF website from December 2008 and August 2009, when the website was everytime updated in proper time. It shows the quality of my work with no doubt. I have my ideas and I intend to share them in the proper time. Now, it's too soon for that. However, I was not invited by any of the candidates for FISTF president yet. In this case I will just wait and reserve my position in a future time. In any case, I'm an official candidate from Portugal.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:26 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Luis, we should stay with the facts.
1. It is the right of FISTF Board to communicate officially only with presidents or board members of associations, national associations are the members of FISTF. If the president of an association is not able to spread news from FISTF, the members of the national association should think about it, if their president is the right person for that job. Don't blame for everything the FISTF Board! (not only in the current situation, we had that situation already before that board was elected)
2. The circulars are not sent only to the presidents of the association, they are free to download from the FISTF website.

When do you think to send your program? Maybe some associations have questions or some input on your program, it could be late for something like that if you send it on 31st of august!

A forum is a must for me too, but some discussions are closer to yellow press than table soccer.

Heinz
Best Regards

I've just post my opinion and you have the right to have yours. we don't agree. That's normal and this is not important for me.
I don't mind if I don't receive the circulars directly from the FISTF BoD if I can download it without a delay of several weeks.
About my program, I believe you cannot have it before I see the program of the candidates for president. I don't know if any of them want working with me and, as I said before, none of them has contacted with me and invited me yet for any job with them. Nevertheless none of them must forget how will be the way of the portuguese vote for the FISTF elections.
Also, there are 8 candidates for Board Members and none of them said if they are candidates for General Secretary, Marketing, Finance, Sports or Communication, except Thossa.
As far as I know, programs should be published by the candidates for president. It's a non sense expect particular programs from the other candidates.
Neverthless, I will publish my ideas (not a formal program) about the job I will be candidate, and it may be not Communication only, but I will do it when I decide that is the time to do it only.
And more, there are 2 candidates also that has not been accept by the current FISTF BoD, situation I believe is not properly legal and it must be solved before elections take place.
Shouldn't be the FISTF Congress having the last word ?
By the way, why aren't you candidate too ?

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:41 pm

In my opinion it is not enough if only the president sends a program.
We are in a very tricky situation with the actual statutes. We don't vote for teams we vote for individual persons, so I think every candidate should declare himself by answerring the following questions.

1. What job would you prefer to do in a board?
2. Who is the prefered president you would like to work with?
3. Who should be part of a board you would like to work for?
4. What are the plans you want to realize in your prefered job in a FISTF Board?
5. Would you accept the voting and work for the other candidate for the president if he wins?

I think that would be a good base for the associations to decide who should get the vote. Without a clearification of those questions it is impossible to vote for somebody.
About the candidates who are not accepted, of course this is a problem, there are 2 ways to solve it in my opinion.
Associations find together and set the board under pressure to accept ALL candidatures (the deadline is wrong in my opinion too, because it was a very short time to apply for jobs). The way applications had to happen was wrong too in my opinion.
The second way is that those candidates fight on their own for their right to be candidate.

As long as both of those things didn't happen, associations only will have to choose between the confirmed candidates and as it seems they agree on the way the FISTF Board acted in that case!?

I'm not a candidate because I don't agree with the way of applications and the deadline which was set, the second point is that the majority of members voted for another candidate 5 months ago!
The actual statutes are also a reason for not being candidate, and last but not least for me personally it is enough to lose 1 election in 1 year, and the result in january doesn't give me the feeling to have a chance this time.
To prevent missunderstandings it doesn't mean that I'm against candidates from former boards automatically.

I only think that some candidates seem to need the same learning lesson the last board had to learn, otherwise I personally can't understand some candidatures. Cool

Heinz

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Luis, we should stay with the facts.
1. It is the right of FISTF Board to communicate officially only with presidents or board members of associations, national associations are the members of FISTF. If the president of an association is not able to spread news from FISTF, the members of the national association should think about it, if their president is the right person for that job. Don't blame for everything the FISTF Board! (not only in the current situation, we had that situation already before that board was elected)
2. The circulars are not sent only to the presidents of the association, they are free to download from the FISTF website.

When do you think to send your program? Maybe some associations have questions or some input on your program, it could be late for something like that if you send it on 31st of august!

A forum is a must for me too, but some discussions are closer to yellow press than table soccer.

Heinz
Best Regards

I've just post my opinion and you have the right to have yours. we don't agree. That's normal and this is not important for me.
I don't mind if I don't receive the circulars directly from the FISTF BoD if I can download it without a delay of several weeks.
About my program, I believe you cannot have it before I see the program of the candidates for president. I don't know if any of them want working with me and, as I said before, none of them has contacted with me and invited me yet for any job with them. Nevertheless none of them must forget how will be the way of the portuguese vote for the FISTF elections.
Also, there are 8 candidates for Board Members and none of them said if they are candidates for General Secretary, Marketing, Finance, Sports or Communication, except Thossa.
As far as I know, programs should be published by the candidates for president. It's a non sense expect particular programs from the other candidates.
Neverthless, I will publish my ideas (not a formal program) about the job I will be candidate, and it may be not Communication only, but I will do it when I decide that is the time to do it only.
And more, there are 2 candidates also that has not been accept by the current FISTF BoD, situation I believe is not properly legal and it must be solved before elections take place.
Shouldn't be the FISTF Congress having the last word ?
By the way, why aren't you candidate too ?


Last edited by Heinz Eder on Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:55 pm

Ok. You want to have the last word in this board.
That's ok for me.
I've already post my opinion about this issue.
Final point!
By the way, you didn't reply why you are no candidate too ?
I think now it is an oportunity for you to explain to all of us.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:01 pm

Ok, so for you discussion means you post your opinion I post mine, further discussion about both opinions are not welcome! Evil or Very Mad
That means to me that it is not possible to change your mind and opinion with good arguments. Evil or Very Mad

I posted the reasons for not being candidate, maybe a short summary again.

I hope better people than me are candidate, so I don't need to be candidate anyway. The members didn't vote for me in january, so I think they won't vote now for me too.

hope things are clear now.

Heinz

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:Ok. You want to have the last word in this board.
That's ok for me.
I've already post my opinion about this issue.
Final point!
By the way, you didn't reply why you are no candidate too ?
I think now it is an oportunity for you to explain to all of us.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:12 pm

But we were not talking about the forum?

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:13 pm

All opinions are welcome.
It doesn't mean I have to change my opinion about the timing to publish a program or other remaing issues.
I will not reply to questions regarding my candidacy before I decide to be the proper time.
If you didn't understand it yet that's because you didn't understood or read well my previous posts.
This dialogue ends here.

Heinz Eder wrote:Ok, so for you discussion means you post your opinion I post mine, further discussion about both opinions are not welcome! Evil or Very Mad
That means to me that it is not possible to change your mind and opinion with good arguments. Evil or Very Mad

I posted the reasons for not being candidate, maybe a short summary again.

I hope better people than me are candidate, so I don't need to be candidate anyway. The members didn't vote for me in january, so I think they won't vote now for me too.

hope things are clear now.

Heinz

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:Ok. You want to have the last word in this board.
That's ok for me.
I've already post my opinion about this issue.
Final point!
By the way, you didn't reply why you are no candidate too ?
I think now it is an oportunity for you to explain to all of us.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:16 pm

pierocapponi wrote:But we were not talking about the forum?

Correct. But remember the last consideration in your post too.
This proves that the Forum is necessary.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:30 pm

Instead of being interested in my reasons for not sending an application, I think it would be more interesting to know your reasons for waiting to present your ideas, don't you think? Surprised

Heinz

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:All opinions are welcome.
It doesn't mean I have to change my opinion about the timing to publish a program or other remaing issues.
I will not reply to questions regarding my candidacy before I decide to be the proper time.
If you didn't understand it yet that's because you didn't understood or read well my previous posts.
This dialogue ends here.

Heinz Eder wrote:Ok, so for you discussion means you post your opinion I post mine, further discussion about both opinions are not welcome! Evil or Very Mad
That means to me that it is not possible to change your mind and opinion with good arguments. Evil or Very Mad

I posted the reasons for not being candidate, maybe a short summary again.

I hope better people than me are candidate, so I don't need to be candidate anyway. The members didn't vote for me in january, so I think they won't vote now for me too.

hope things are clear now.

Heinz

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:Ok. You want to have the last word in this board.
That's ok for me.
I've already post my opinion about this issue.
Final point!
By the way, you didn't reply why you are no candidate too ?
I think now it is an oportunity for you to explain to all of us.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:43 pm

It seems you want to hide something, isn't it ? Laughing
About my ideas you must be very very very pacient waiting for it... Laughing

Heinz Eder wrote:Instead of being interested in my reasons for not sending an application, I think it would be more interesting to know your reasons for waiting to present your ideas, don't you think? Surprised

Heinz


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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  maxischn on Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:06 pm

pierocapponi wrote:But we were not talking about the forum?

we already agreed that a forum is necessary.
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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Thossa on Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:59 am

Nearly everyone needs a forum somewhere. Some people only write in there own language, par example lots of belgians use only their belgian forum.

Another pretty cool example is the english Subbuteo Player forum. Here I found some very interesting postings by FISTF BoD-member Alan Collins.

To all english followers of this forum which also use the Subbuteo Player forum:
Janus Gersie already gave to the english WC-Delegation a help to book in a hotel in Bayerdelling. Less than 5 km away from Rain. Really next to the venue. No panic, folks.

And it is true. First Alan voted for Fiumicino, not for Rain. But after a dialogue between him and me, he agreed about the fact, Rain is the better choice for 2010 and Fiumicino for 2011 because of good reasons.

Do you remember, Alan, my old toppie pirat
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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Gonby on Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:04 pm

and without a forum, we can wait many days before knew some results!!!!

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:02 am

Luis what point is not clear for you?
I'm not a candidate I didn't send an application, I won't send an application so it is not important to know my reasons, but I wrote them here and answer your questions.
Your only answer to my questions are new other questions.

but don't panic, I won't bother you with questions anymore.

Heinz

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:It seems you want to hide something, isn't it ? Laughing
About my ideas you must be very very very pacient waiting for it... Laughing

Heinz Eder wrote:Instead of being interested in my reasons for not sending an application, I think it would be more interesting to know your reasons for waiting to present your ideas, don't you think? Surprised

Heinz


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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:28 am

I don't panic. Why should I ?
I'm just bored with your insistence after I set my final decision.
And I'm not really interested about your reasons you are not candidate.
Nevertheless, just remember I'm not the enemy. I'm only someone who cares.
And we all should care about the future of FISTF.

[quote="Heinz Eder"]Luis what point is not clear for you?
I'm not a candidate I didn't send an application, I won't send an application so it is not important to know my reasons, but I wrote them here and answer your questions.
Your only answer to my questions are new other questions.

but don't panic, I won't bother you with questions anymore.

Heinz

[quote]

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:55 am

The future of FISTF is very, very black. No one cares to explain what they will do to grow the game.

Vincent will tell you that under his leadership we have grown from 1,000 players (in seven years ...), a ridiculous number for any federation.

We believe that the solutions are the forum and the web, nothing more. That is only for the bit players who travel (as there are 200?) Have your information .....

and some people worry about getting new players ....

But let's be honest, we really interested in new players?

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:25 am

Hi Piero,

I don't say FISTF future is black. Maybe it's grey now.
In fact, table football needs new players, but we must not thinking about old players, even they played in the past or not.
Table Football needs young players. We must teach them how to play and also face it as a real sport. We need to create training classes and bring the youth back to table football.
It takes time, for sure, but it is the only way to remodel the future of the sport.
In Portugal, I'm trying to give my contribution for this solution and the path is creating a Table Football School for players under 15 yo. It's hard to achieve but not impossible. We need to work a lot.
These are not words only, This is a strong feeling. I hope I get my goal.

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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Admin on Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:36 am

Everything is going about a question of view. From the side you are, you can always see things in a different way.

FISTF has about 1850 players in the world rankings (it was between 800 and 900 8 years ago) so the improvement is real.

Italy claims to have 1000 players (or more) but they have about 500 int he world rankings. Belgium has 230 players (those who pay a membership fee), 300 in the belgian ranking and more than 200 in the world rankings. You take your own conclusions but for me it's clear Belgians are more interested about FISTF and the FISTF circuit than the Italians. Same if you consider the tournaments. There were 238 individuals in MONS (including 91 from Belgium) and 228 in BOLOGNA (including 154 from Italy). Sorry but 154 is a very poor number for an associations that claims to have more than 1000 players as Bologna, according to the Italians, is the best tournament on earth.

How can you say the growth of FISTF (in terms of players) was ridiculous when at the same time Italy told me "Satellites, Challengers and Futures are meaningless'. Sorry but these tournaments are the best way to get more players involved, in particular in countries with many players.

About improvements, we can also use different analyses. In Belgium, the numbers go up and down all the time. This year we have a good improvement but maybe next season we'll lose 15% of players. I think Spain (for instance) should also think about long term instead of telling things like "we got 100 new players". Wait 5 years and see how many of them will still be paying their membership fee... Talking about improvements in one year is a joke. OK, Total Soccer has helped to get new players but how many "real new players are there? Many people (like for instance Luis felipe Mendez) have had a major influence on the growth of numbers because they started running clubs and working with the youth.

That the future is very back is something I don't believe. I believe the international situation has reached his top over the last 2 years and that there was a big risk to see numbers going down. There is no miracle to get an improvement of the situation. Even if tomorrow the game (Total Soccer, Zeugo, Inside,...) is distributed in every country of the world, you will have no guarantee to have a big increase of "table football players". In the different associations, what makes the difference is the work of the local organizers. Local organizers is the key to success, much more than national organizers or FISTF leaders. Table football would be nothing in Berlin without Marcus Tilgner, same for Dirtmund without Thossa, same for Mons without Olivier Père, the whole "dutch-speaking side of Belgium" without Filip Van Hulle, Cardiff without John Lauder,,... OK, Itay is very lucky to have many local organizers but when I see the italian forum, I realize that a very small majority of italian players is really interested about what's going on outside of Italy.

As a former FISTF President, my dream was just to make FISTF bigger. Bigger means with more countries. Without wanting to be arrogant, I think I have helped a lot of nations to be part of FISTF over the last 12 years: the USA, Argentina, Canada, South Africa, Australia, Singapore, Finland, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Monaco,... and that's something I'm very proud of.

Yes, the future will be black if we don't concentrate on the "world game".
The future will be black if you think the way to grow is just "to do like in Italy".
The future will be black if you forget that communication (blog, newsletter, forum, website) is the key of success.
The future will be black if you don't respect the smaller nations.
The future will be black if you don't understand that smaller associations deserve as much respect as the big nations.
The future will be black if you don't understand that FISTF has to get a strong circuit of tournaments in as many countries as possible.
The future will be black if people think the most important thing is to focus on the world cup and the Europa Cup.
The future will be black if you forget all what happened in the last 40 years and you think everything started less than 2 years ago.
The future will be black if you think that you just need to have televisions and newspapers at tournaments to get a lot of new players.
The future will be black if you forget that Dortmund 2006 had the largest media coverage ever for a table football tournament.
The future will be black if you think you can easily convince the youth of the rich countries to give up the playstation to start playing table football.
The future will be black if you think table football can become professional.
The future will be black if the FISTF Board continues to spend more money (in particular to pay the trips of the FISTF Board members) than what they have.
The future will be black if the FISTF Board thinks money must be invested in meeting instead of development.

This week-end there were tournaments in South Africa (the AfCon Cup) and Singapore (played in a large shopping mall) and there was nothing int he FISTF newsletter just because the Board had been unable to update his calendar. What a shame!

Yes, I'm angry, tired, sad about all what has been done since January. A lot of priomises but just a Board made of people with big ideas and absolutely no work! Where are the updates on the FISTF website? Where is the FISTF forum? When will players get answers to their questions.

OK, we need more players but how can we be happy when you see that many of the "new players" are veterans. In the 2 tournaments played in Wales last week-end, there were many veterans but not any single U19 or U15 player. Ooops...

The last thing I will say for today is that FISTF is very lucky to have Frédéric Perdaens because he's the only one who's keeping working well. Without the help of the Board, he's able to publish the world rankings in due time and every new rankings file is like a miracle when I see his work conditions.

Amen.
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Re: We really need a forum?

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:30 pm

Interesting intervention

It is clear that everything is a matter of views.

I think most importantly, to grow at this stage is the Total Soccer or Zeug. They are the people.
Spain is the work of Antonio Montaño, Luis Felipe Mendez, Luis Lopez, Jose Carlos Guerrero, Abraham Gracia, Jose Castilian, Flavio Watcha and of course Juan Carlos Granados, worth more than 1.000.0000 boxes.

The product does not work alone to grow. We need love, clear rules, enthusiasm, simple rules for new players, many local and regional tournaments (you know that the regional circuit in Tuscany has 70 players including 20 at most in the ranking FISTF? And in the Autonomic Andalusia there were 45 registered?).

You can not measure things in terms of participation in a Major. Belgium is great as Castilla Y León, a region of Spain. Spain to play in a tournament outside of your city need to do, at least 300 km.

Absolutely everything you say is right, but only one point of view, the player. The players have to play, and if they are better professionals. Then there are the fans, the new, those who only want to entertain.

Tennis is not the Nadal-Federer, the millions of people around the world play on weekends with friends. this is our problem.

Go tournament is still a nightmare! Two games, 10 goals put you and goodbye .... this is? I do not think the number 1500 ranking have to play a Major! And in an environment where education is the rule wrong. We're pigs. have you ever stopped to look at that?

You talked about what happened in the last 40 years .... since 1994, when it created the FISTF only fans ..... we have lost millions of fans .....

in 1983 the Spanish Federation of Subbuteo had 14,000 members what they were ..... have done their best to destroy everything.

True, we have to respect all. Too bad about ourselves.

The problem is also that in the end you and I are always talking about this ...

Piero


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Re: We really need a forum?

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