U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

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U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  von K. on Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:37 pm

I think the smaller kids should play their WC games in a space that is not the same with Open and other more serious categories. This has to do with the professionality and practicality of the competition in terms of schedules announcements etc.

When I was in Rotterdam last year it was really horrible. Almost every round had to be announced many times. You couldn't hear anything properly and there were always - mostly kids - late from the games.

It is understandable that kids aren't good with schedules. And it's only normal. And in the end it's not the kids fault at all, but their parents or team managers who should take care of them.

But the problem remains and for me the only good solution is a divided space/hall for the kids that has also different timing for the games.

You can say that if someone is not on time, he will get a warning or loses the game, but with kids it's profoundly the wrong way to do things. With only more serious competitions in one space/hall it is easier for everyone to listen to the announcements and the games are easier to play according to schedule.

In fact don't even think U-12 is a good official category for WC. Kids are competitive naturally even without big titles, nad they are doing that every day in everyday life. It's unnecessary to have even more pressure on them with a title like that in a hobby. I don't believe children's world championships in general in any sport are good for their development as humans, as for example their psyche, self-image and personality are very much undeveloped at that stage. In many sports there are no official world championships for small kids, because for them sports should be for fun and games, not for adult world serious competition where winning is everything. Most kids wouldn't miss a WC themselves, but the adults are using their kids to compete themselves. But it's another discussion.

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Re: U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  Admin on Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:01 pm

Accepting the U12 category and the rule of 0-5 were the 2 main things the old Board accepted when being "under pressure" by people who wanted to make a revolution. In such a case, we thought it could be good to "give something" to people who were against almost everything the Board was doing. Well, about the rule of 0-5, I believe it was a huge mistake to accept the rule. About the U12, it's difficult. IN belgium, we have always had a tradition of young players but we always thought it was too young to give a world title, at least "something official". Finally because more and more people became interested, the U12 category became official. I don't think it's good because these kids are too young and depends on "very motivated parents" to travel to tournaments. Anyway, it's not totally negative because as long as you organize U12 tournaments, it may looks sily that all categories are official but not the U12. So really I'm not really in favor of it and I'm not totally against it. I'm just surprised that 10 years ago 99% of the table football community was against making the U12 category official and after some years the opinions changed...
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Re: U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  von K. on Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:51 pm

I know and understand, but don't agree with, the motivations. I have seen all too often that in many sports it's more about the parents than the kids. The kids are having fun even playing football with an orange with one friend on an alley. Children don't come up with WC or other ideas for big competitions without adults, because they don't need them. When the children enjoy something the most, it's when adults are not around making plans and rules.

But the main point of this topic is the problem of having small kids in the same WC tournament hall/space. It makes the adult categories suffer and was very frustrating last time.

And I repeat: Adults can be punished for being late with even making them lose the game. Children can't be punished like that. The whole WC is made for adult mind and time knowledge, the kids can't manage that. Even with U-15 this is a problem.

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Re: U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  Martin Hodds on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:33 am

von K. wrote:The whole WC is made for adult mind and time knowledge, the kids can't manage that.
There are many adults who seem to have a big problem with this too !! Wink

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Re: U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  Thossa on Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:06 am

Vesa, you are absolutely right in what you are writting about the U12-category. In my opinion it should have no place at a World Cup. The number of good U12-players is low, they could play easily together with the other U15-players, if necessary.

As for the U15-category I think the history proves, it is okay to play with them under one roof.
As for the U12.... Your idea is good. Why not? Probably it could be possible to seperate them in an other building, but I don´t know. This is only a problem for the organizers, I think.


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Re: U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  drastis on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:49 am

Although a good idea in principle, I think organising the U12 category separately has several practical issues. First of all, most of the kids are there with their fathers who also play. So, it would be a problem if a parent has to be elsewhere watching his kid. The other practical problem is referees. It will be impossible to find referees for the kids games, if they play on different premises. Also, you would need more staff and equipment to run the kids tournament (time-keeper, secretariat etc), which is anyway hard to find.

I think returning to an unofficial state, U12 tournaments will have the freedom to host kids as they are. For instance, kids games will not have to be as strict regarding timing. If a kid is late on a table, the other games start on time. The specific game starts when kids are ready. Just an idea.

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Re: U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:58 am

I agree particullary with both of you.
The problem is not the motivation of the children, I'm surprised and shocked at the same time to see some coaches or parents of those children how they try to motivate them during a match.
Those people don't really seem to have any idea of working with children, otherwise I can't explain to myself that children are crying after they lost and then the father or coach is giving them the rest and blame them why they lost. Some so called coaches already start during the match to give them extra pressure.
Children in that age are very motivated, they don't need extra motivation from people, who only think that they are professional coaches like in soccer.
On the other side I don't think it would be different, if the category wouldn't be official. I think it would be enough to ban those people from the games, the children should have the chance to play on their own, everything they didn't learn at training they won't learn during a WC, so they don't need an grown up as coach. In my opinion there should only be somebody undependent in the middle at the team match who is announcing the score for both teams. There shouldn't be allowed tactical instruction during the match, that's my opinion.
Of course the same should happen in the individual, no coaches, no parents, who are giving instructions or putting pressure on their children.

Heinz

Admin wrote:Accepting the U12 category and the rule of 0-5 were the 2 main things the old Board accepted when being "under pressure" by people who wanted to make a revolution. In such a case, we thought it could be good to "give something" to people who were against almost everything the Board was doing. Well, about the rule of 0-5, I believe it was a huge mistake to accept the rule. About the U12, it's difficult. IN belgium, we have always had a tradition of young players but we always thought it was too young to give a world title, at least "something official". Finally because more and more people became interested, the U12 category became official. I don't think it's good because these kids are too young and depends on "very motivated parents" to travel to tournaments. Anyway, it's not totally negative because as long as you organize U12 tournaments, it may looks sily that all categories are official but not the U12. So really I'm not really in favor of it and I'm not totally against it. I'm just surprised that 10 years ago 99% of the table football community was against making the U12 category official and after some years the opinions changed...

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Re: U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  von K. on Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:32 am

drastis wrote:Although a good idea in principle, I think organising the U12 category separately has several practical issues. First of all, most of the kids are there with their fathers who also play. So, it would be a problem if a parent has to be elsewhere watching his kid. The other practical problem is referees. It will be impossible to find referees for the kids games, if they play on different premises. Also, you would need more staff and equipment to run the kids tournament (time-keeper, secretariat etc), which is anyway hard to find.

Yes, it would be very difficult if the space is in a different building.

I feel that even separating for example the U-12 from the rest with some higher (2m high, maybe) barriers (I don't know a term in english) and separating the time keeping could help a lot. Thsi would mean that there could be one person organizing the U-12 event and the other events would be done through announcements and general time keeping.

drastis wrote:I think returning to an unofficial state, U12 tournaments will have the freedom to host kids as they are. For instance, kids games will not have to be as strict regarding timing. If a kid is late on a table, the other games start on time. The specific game starts when kids are ready. Just an idea.

This is exactly what I'm after. There were also other good points from others. For example Heinz with the "banning" of adults from the tablesides. This ban system is done succesfully in some sports and clubs, in Finland at least. And the kids enjoy them a lot more. The parents have to wait in the cafeteria or somewhere else, or watch from further without talking.

Children shouldn't cry after matches, they should enjoy playing with kids their age from different countries. No matter what the result is. That's the way to get them to play fair also when older, and to keep all the players interested in the game.

The practical arrangements can require extra effort, but I think this is worth thinking.

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Re: U-12 and U-15 in a different hall than Open etc

Post  Admin on Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:23 pm

Probably the biggest mistake was to make a "friendly world cup" back in 2005 in Tournai because from that point people just became crazy about the idea to make it official...
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